what is collusion? lol
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what is collusion? lol
From Zab's post on the second page:
Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage
nice ty
Not collusion but should be a dead hand no question.. In a live setting they wouldn't call it collusion but would definitely kill the persons hand who said anything like that.
It is not collusion, just chit chat chit. Some people lie what they have but never the less, chat is not a decision making tool pre-turn. Collusion is using messenger or a private line to communicate outside of chat. Whatever, other than nh or gc I dont use or read chat too much. Given the all in, it is poor taste in this case..
yeah, it is borderline collusion. May just be chit chat at a table, but maybe the respect of poker is so far gone people don't consider cheating what it is anymore. Now, they may not have been playing as a team, and i do believe they were not, but still, that is cheating and it is not right.
for it to be collusion they would have to split the point they won right?
for it to be collusion, they would have to be working as a team, which i don't think is the case at all. but cheating is what it is regardless, anyone who can hold their spit in poker knows the get down of how to play and knows that speaking your hands outloud while a hand is in progress knows what the deal is, it is a violation of rules and ethics, and imo, is cheating.
yea you cant say what your action will be when some1 is acting to help out to other players in the hand, not good to do....
idk what happend, but any1 speaking during the hand, about the hand and what they are going to do to help or make some1 do soemthing isnt cool and so be instantly banned from playing....I remember back in the day several years ago pokerstars didnt have all in chat block, and once some1 pushed all in people were allowed to discuss what they would do and other players would help and give there opinons, it was horrible....the greatest change they did was block chat once some1 was all in...love it :)
but no matter what we do, what tables we play, there will always be collusion with Online Poker, either its friends playing a cash table togerther sharing hands, or playing in a SNG together helping each other out sharing hands and dumping chips so they got a better % to cash and make the money or win....its sad but it will be impossible to stop. Wish there was a way to bring an end to it but I highly doubt it. :(
I edited so its easier to read ... I did not change the order of anything ...
So BPM goes allin FIRST! Then the other two discuss stuff!
That's two vs one so it is collusion.
Was it premeditated collusion?... idk ... still collusion nonetheless.
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Fury and Brew ...
If you can try to wipe everything you know about this hand ... easier said then done but try.
Now put yourself in BPM's shoes.
So you are allin and two people are discussing the hand before they act ... are you happy or pissed?
My problem with calling this collusion is that its not like its a tourney and they want to team up to get bpm out so they move up in payouts.
And in theory what they did was wrong but if you look at the hand as a whole nothing wrong really happened. Fury said he had 10's (later said that he thought he was heads up with bpm and didnt know gimme was still in hand). Gimme said hes folding if fury calls. And like i said earlier they have no reason to team up because its cash game so bpm getting eliminated means nothing. So the more likely scenario is that Gimme was angling fury saying he would fold (acting weak in the hopes of getting fury to call). As we see when the cards turned up this wasnt the case becase gimme had nothing, but in a cash game scenario like this you have to presume that gimme is angling fury rather than colluding against a player when it makes no difference if they KO him.
BPM you are trying to strip everything down to the letter of the law and not using ur common sense of what really happened here. And as i stated before if u want to go totally by the rules then when fury said he had 10's his hand would have been killed and u wouldnt have got 2K pts of him. So if ur all about the straight and narrow why not send him his 2K back?
Im sorry but i just cant see how this can be called collusion when neither of them used any of the information the other one gave out. The fact that gimme called with a weaker hand when fury said his hand shows they werent working together and that gimme didnt use the knowledge of fury having a better hand than him to his advantage. Basically what happened was Fury turned his cards up and Gimme acted out of turn.
As you keep claiming to be a "real" and "true" poker player im sure youve seen people turn their cards up before and people act out of turn, are they banable offenses??
Dont get me wrong im totally against collusion in poker. But that is not what happened here.
You can call it what you want. You dont have to call it collusion , but the had was.. I call it straight cheating.. I call it a Cheap attempt to get an edge on me. I call it unfair. i call it what it is: Two players that KNEW EXACTLY what they were doing. He knew they werent heads up Gimme 3 bet the hand and i reshoved, action then was on Fury. Fury did not act until about 10 seconds after what Brew said. I will gladly give the 2k points back if zab bans the kids from client.
You dont have to call it " collusion" Call it CHEATING. exactly what it is. people are not allowed to talka bout a hand while stil in action and discuss thier strategy prior to acting. This is the second time this has happened to me. The First time was much worse, and Rckt has come out and said he was blantally wrong and apologized and promised to never do it again.
I cant beleive you think nothing is wrong here.
Mrfury did not want to call, he opened then gimme and i had postion on him, after gimme re raises then i shove, he doesnt really want to call thats why he tells his hand outloud to gimme. Gimme then pulled another level of dickishness by stating that he would fold if he called , After stating his hand outlod to gimme and I while this is the biggest pot of the Poker table, Fury then shoves because he now knows he has gimme beat.
Never discuss cards in the hand, that is just plain cheating. So technically, I would consider it cheating. It's not far from colluding though.
I believe there is such a thing as unintentional collusion which would hold a completely different definition than the one zab stated and the client would be the most likely place for it as these guys talk about a lot of hands in there to try and throw each other off..
gimme didnt even do anything but react to fury trying to get him to fold .. in the big picture that prolly helped mike out .. but what fury did was no better than colluding imo because thats exactly what he was trying to do .. change the outcome of the action with his words regardless of whether or not it was in private like a real act of collusion would have been done
Seriously , i cant beleive a mod defends cheaters so much, i guess hes your friend irl or something. theswe two ppl are the definition on PO scum, them and all the underage and bashers should be booted
See that makes no sense. Because if fury was so afraid of gimme and didnt want to call. Then when gimme said he would fold if fury calls, fury would have just called instead of shoving. No reason to shove because like i said in a cash game like this it is more likely gimme is angling fury then colluding against you. So to me this pretty much shows the fury didnt use what gimme said in making his decision
As for gimme its pretty obvious that he didnt let knowing fury had 10,10 change his actions as he called anyways.
Those were the 2 things that were said. And considering neither used any of the info given up when making their decisions its pretty clear they werent conspiring against you.
Gimme had open ended straight draw aka the nuts for him, hes never folding after re raising.. Fury KNew he wasnt folding ffs lol you obviously didnt read the chat log... Since now he knew that gimme was weak, he knew he had him beat at least that is why he reshoved.
its fucked up but it can go both ways, if it happened to me id be pissed but its w.e....no disscusion should be going on while a hand is in progress 100% not allowed but w.e
lol i just realized prawn why is ur icon a shrimp lol....im sure ive noticed it b4 but i never asked why haha......
You got me wrong. Im not defending cheaters. Because this is a case of you exagerating and making it like they were colluding against you, which from all the information available they werent. You are too close to the situation and arent looking at the hand objectively. If fury was so afraid of gimme he would have folded, definately wouldnt have shoved. What gimme said is more of an angleshoot, like saying something along the lines of " whatever u bet im calling". As a "true" and "real" poker player you should know not to take anyones word at the table as the truth so why would fury takes gimme word for the truth here.
The only thing wrong in the whole hand was mr fury saying what hand he had. But it didnt have an effect on what gimme did so its not collusion. What gimme did was an angle not colluding.
Your posts are almost showing that it couldnt be collusion because you just said that gimme had the draw that was the nuts for him. So he was never folding. And according to you what gimme said is the reason fury went all in. So in your own words Gimme had "the nuts for him" and his talk made fury shove. So going by what ur saying it looks like gimme got a guy to shove against him while holding the nuts. But that cant be right because i thought they were colluding against you???
@prawney, mrfury wanted information about the hand that is why he stated his hand. After gimmebrew gave him info he knew wat he wanted to do. He should have never pulled that move.
Im just saying by your words not mine gimme had a straight draw that was the nuts and he wasnt folding. So by him giving fury the info he did that made fury think he was weak and shove. It seems to me that by what you said its clear that gimme was saying what he did to get fury to call/shove. Which means he was angling fury not colluding against you.
I think everyone is missing the point here. You are never allowed to talk about your hand in a multi-way pot(tournament or cash game) - period. Try doing this in a live game at a casino and see where it gets you. If it's HUs different casinos have different rules - but even the WSOP in HUs you are not allowed to talk about your hand - the Jamie Gold rule. It is 100% unethical and borders on collusion if you state your action depending on what another player will or will not do. bigphatmike is right here.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree prawney, you think im wrong and your rgiht and vice versa.
This is actually pretty easy to explain. As discussed many times already talking about your hand when others are involved is a major no no.
Here is one of many instances of what a google search for "poker etiquette" will produce.
Poker Etiquette: Basic Poker Rules and Table Manners
2. Don't Talk About Your Cards While the Hand is Still Going On
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google "poker collusion" ... one of the first hits
Poker Collusion
The most common form of cheating online is called ?collusion?. Colluders work in teams to either bet other players out of the pot, share information about what cards they each have, or to ?chip dump? to one another.
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If you know two cards that are dead and they are no help to you then you gain an edge... If I needed one of 4 eights or one of 4 fours to make a straight I'd love to know that 2 tens were dead.
This proves nothing. So doing 1 thing that colluders do just proves they were colluding. Thats like saying DL in the NFL usually weigh over 300llbs. So when i see someone 300llbs+ i can disregard all the other information i have and just assume he plays as a DL in the NFL. I know its stupid but that seems to be the arguements we are going for today.
People seem to be missing my point. Mrfury said what hand he held. I agree with everyone that he cant/shouldnt do this. Normally his hand is ruled dead. Gimme didnt really do anything wrong. He indulged in table talk and while borderline all casino's/ card rooms have diff rules when it comes to what kinda talk they allow. You could even say he acted out of turn and his verbal action was binding, but since mrfury shoved the action changed and so he isnt held to his verbal action anymore.
Ive never said that there wasnt some kind of foul play in the hand. But seriously with all the information available you cant say these guys were colluding against bpm. BPM is in this thread calling for bans and what not. When ur in the casino and somone flips up there hand my mistake and u see his cards do you stand up and scream "FLOOR", Then tell the floor you want everyone at the table kicked out and banned for colluding because they all see what hand he held and will use that info against you.
Fury made a simple mistake. He even apologised for it. Yet your still on a mission to prove this was collusion against you.
@Prawney if a guy accidentally shows his hand yes i am calling FLOOR because that is now a dead hand right away,,even if he has money in the pot, even if hes all in . that is the Rules and i stick by the rules. Its just like specualting in live poker, its a form of colluding. Speculation is sooo DAMN lenient and that pisses me off, because you can get a lot of information out of one perosn talking about his/her hand even to the littlest. So yes the action has changed because now their is new information, and you better beive Mrfury acted out of that Information.
gimme cant even spell collucian.
http://personal.erodov.com/vijaynine...troll_side.jpg
so many damn squares man shit happens
i have learnt one thing tho...i never wanna meet bpm in real life and play ANYTHING with this guy, guys who stick to the rules like this take all the fun out of everything
the world is based on rules, some rules can be bent others, broken and some do have to be stuck to its about common sense if this were the wsop final table and the hand was between the top 3 stacks and as a result the comments made changed the hands outcome then yes i would agree some sort of action would need to be taken BUT the hands action wasnt changed, this is a ring game for less than $5 and for the love of god u benifited from it now kindly stfu u fucking idiot retard....i fucking hate americans at the best of times and you are doing them no fucking favours
all i can say its wrong to talk period about your hand while 2 peeps are engage in the hand, hand over then yeah, but i am sure everyone know this right?