Limping with less than 10BB?

[jasonv12]

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

[rghy2]

You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

This is the basic strategy I follow, but I will still shove in the 5-10bb range depending on the situation. Really strong hands ep and good but not great hands when I'm in late position are both times I will shove. I also feel that since the "correct" play is to start shoving at 10bb, more players are likely to call a wider range against this typical play. When I follow my own strategy I become harder to read. I actually believe that more people fold to my shove at 5x then the "book" player who shoves at 10bb because they have already made the assumption that I am a nit that will let myself be blinded out waiting for a premium hand, thus I must have a premium hand.

I am going to have to get this some thought though. I watch a lot of people get knocked out shoving with 8-10 bb, but if they double they have a better chance of making a deeper run than I would waiting to shove.

As far as losing all my fold equity to a limped pot, I typically only limp in unraised or min raised pots and after that I'm either shoving or folding to a raise. I won't be calling and chasing anything down which still gives me flop fold equity and I'll take down a bigger pot at that point.

I think shoving short stacked is very exploitable, but that's just my opinion. If you had a large stack, you would only bet/raise 8-10bb with very strong hands or in very specific situations. If you're shoving short stacked you've opened up your range making it profitable for other players to open up their calling ranges and still be in a +ev spot against the short stack.

One other thing I have to consider though is that my BR is still playing very fast paced tournaments where the levels are putting everyone short stacked fairly quickly. I think my strategy works well for fast tournaments, but when you get to slower tournaments with a much longer blind structure it must take more bbs to have some fold equity. There is a huge difference in how these tournaments play out. If the avg stack is only 15-20bb, you still have fold equity at 5bb since that is 1/3-1/4 of most players stacks.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I hope I've explained my logic ok.

[lorenz0wns]

This is the basic strategy I follow, but I will still shove in the 5-10bb range depending on the situation. Really strong hands ep and good but not great hands when I'm in late position are both times I will shove. I also feel that since the "correct" play is to start shoving at 10bb, more players are likely to call a wider range against this typical play. When I follow my own strategy I become harder to read. I actually believe that more people fold to my shove at 5x then the "book" player who shoves at 10bb because they have already made the assumption that I am a nit that will let myself be blinded out waiting for a premium hand, thus I must have a premium hand.

I am going to have to get this some thought though. I watch a lot of people get knocked out shoving with 8-10 bb, but if they double they have a better chance of making a deeper run than I would waiting to shove.

As far as losing all my fold equity to a limped pot, I typically only limp in unraised or min raised pots and after that I'm either shoving or folding to a raise. I won't be calling and chasing anything down which still gives me flop fold equity and I'll take down a bigger pot at that point.

I think shoving short stacked is very exploitable, but that's just my opinion. If you had a large stack, you would only bet/raise 8-10bb with very strong hands or in very specific situations. If you're shoving short stacked you've opened up your range making it profitable for other players to open up their calling ranges and still be in a +ev spot against the short stack.

One other thing I have to consider though is that my BR is still playing very fast paced tournaments where the levels are putting everyone short stacked fairly quickly. I think my strategy works well for fast tournaments, but when you get to slower tournaments with a much longer blind structure it must take more bbs to have some fold equity. There is a huge difference in how these tournaments play out. If the avg stack is only 15-20bb, you still have fold equity at 5bb since that is 1/3-1/4 of most players stacks.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I hope I've explained my logic ok.

Look at the math of limping. Let's say that there are ~40 players left in a PO FR and blinds are 150/300 and the ante is 25. The action is folded around to you and you are MP1 with 10bbs with a shoving hand (top 21% of ur shoving range) in a 9 handed table.

We are limping 300 to win 675. You will miss most flops and I am assuming you are folding when you flop nothing but air. So 65% of the time we fold the flop and 35% of the time we are continuing. Assuming we win 100% of the time we nail the flop, which will always not be true , but let's assume 100% in this one particular example, then that would value the call at:

(975 * 35%) - 300 = +41.25 equity on the flop

But tbh, even if you hit your hand and you're up against the SB/BB the chances of them paying you off depends varies whether they want to GII light/top pair minimum.

^In that particular example, it is +EV. However, that is assuming no one will raise after you or no one will shove. So at best you're barely +41.25 EV. Poker is all about maximizing EV and the clear answer to maximizing +EV with 10bbs in MP1 is easily a shove.