Merge Debate .. All In The Numbers

I believe what people confuse as Merge being rigged has more to do with the numbers .. when i say numbers I mean the number of strong vs weak players on Merge which imo is like 20% strong / 80% weak. Carbon was loaded with weak players when I first played here 5 years ago and is still loaded with weak players now. For those of you who had never played on a Merge client and came from places like tilt, stars and ub where the numbers were more in the range of 80% strong / 20% weak there is an extremely huge difference in the quality of play. Let's not get mixed up in this good poker vs bad poker like i have been so horrible about because the fact is everyone has a different playing style. Anyone who has played on Stars and Tilt had a specific foreigner they knew to watch out for because of their loose aggressive style of play .. i know i did as well as many others. A lot of weak players couldn't make money on sites like Tilt and Stars because of the amazing amount of strong players in everything from the ring games to the sngs and mtts so they migrated to sites like Carbon where they outnumber the strong players and make money off of each other.lol If you take a look around you will notice the only place on Merge that has any real action from any real players who are there to make money is on the ring games. The differences are to outstanding to even try and compare this network to any other.

The point is that the proof is in the pudding here folks .. The big 3 poker networks that are no longer with us attracted millions of quality players and had the pros to prove it .. Look around and read the forums .. very few experienced and/or quality players will have anything to do with the Merge network and that is why they are loaded with fish who play any 2 cards. The era of being able to play a good solid game of poker with minimal risk of running into bad play is over for now and the new era of playing any 2 cards is in. When you are used to playing 80/20 and have to deal with 20/80 your win to lose ratios get turned completely upside down. Merge has never been in the same league as any of those sites we all miss and it is pointless to expect that from it.

At least we can still play poker and still have a chance at making some cash .. I do thank Merge for providing that!!! lol

bullpuckey............all these players from those three sites who migrated to merge should have balanced out your 20/80 percentages!!

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Originally Posted by tp3rd

bullpuckey............all these players from those three sites who migrated to merge should have balanced out your 20/80 percentages!!

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Yup your wrong. There's no way that the weak players are the only one who migrated to merge.

lol we are talking about a site that has 10k people on at max and your trying to compare it to sites who had 100k people on come on guys give me a break... how many serious players do you think even waste there time on a site with carbons reputation .. not many .. like i said look around and do some research you will find the truth ..

I agree, that's why i just play for fun.

I really dont think stars and tilt had that many % wise of better players. Just the numbers were so huge, there were alot of skilled players there. So alot of them same fish are here at carbon/Merge. Granted i didnt get rich playing at either site but had numerous cash outs per site and have yet to get to cash out status but the 1 time i got into the 100k thru sat ticket and won 250. but i didnt really wanna cash out for just a hundred since i havent put anything on there in a year but im just not making the money i want too there. Its more of a break even in the long run, im up just a little in turnys.

On a side note tho... but still carbon involved

Donks or any 2 players in my exp used to be the bread and butter of poker and to an extent sometimes they still are. Ive seen alot with some decent little winnings. Its just with the piss poor rng at merge the long shot players are hitting there draws in big pots too often. It seems like every time i get taken out of a turny its a 2 or 3 outer or longer shots hitting . Now im not gonna sit here and lie and say i NEVER suck out cause i know better but im not playing the game to suck out like some. Whether its just cause they are that loose/agg or what but i know im going to see 10 to 15 to 1 of me getting sucked out on vrs the amount of times i suck out cause again im not playing to draws as hard as others.

Who saying was it that said " the river changes up to 70% of the outcomes"

So i really dont think Merge is rigged for any one person but maybe(id like to think not) more of a rigged for action kinda rng.

youre wrong again Nascar.....before the fallout merges traffic was hovering at @ 1800 to 2400 players.....since the fallout max and its usualy 11.5k to 12k at peak hours!!

Well, Nascar, I believe there's truth in your words

Merge is not rigged...I don't know why people keep saying it is. The RNG doesn't generate more action flops. The caliber of player on this site is worse like Nascar said. It's always been like that, Merge has always been a soft site and for a player that can dedicate a lot of time playing poker I feel you could honestly make a living off of the Merge games. The games are that soft. Take for example in my bankroll challenge, I'm currently down from all my freeroll winnings, but in most of the games I've lost in I've been ahead when the chips go into the pot. Is it rigged since I lost all those hands, hell no. It's just a bad run of cards. I've played over 3k hands since I started that challenge, that's not a large enough sample to say anything is rigged. On FTP I logged over a million hands and looking at my PokerTracker from that site it was clear it wasn't rigged. I don't have nearly that number on Merge, but with the numbers I do have it already is pretty clear it's not rigged. There are a few anomalies but that's due to the small sample size I have.

On a side note, statisticians use the number 30 as the number in order to do a normal distribution plot. This is the number of samples they need to correctly determine if something is accurate according to what they predicted. I dare everyone here to track the next 30 times they get Aces and push all in preflop against one opponent and let me know how often you win. That will take you a long time to get those numbers. It's hard to get that information off of PokerTracker but I believe on FTP I had something along the lines of that situation coming up 100 times, maybe more I honestly can't remember and don't have the hand histories anymore. In those 100 hundreds I was winning a little over 70% of the time. The numbers so far from Carbon are very similar, although with a much smaller sample size.

The point of this rambling is, merge is not rigged. To many players assume it is off of a small sample of hands. You have to play tens of thousands of hands in order to truly see the magnitude of how online poker is not rigged for action flops or for certain players.

Mrlova while i may disagree with your saying merge is not rigged for action. I agree with sample size needed to determine anything. until i have 10k sample size i will remain silent on my rigged for action statement.

Heres a kicker for ya tho isnt the rigged BJ on merge run off the same rng? I think we all agree with casinos online being rigged at a higher % then B&M

i think all this talk is just because basically all we got here in the usa to play is merge site
i remember tilt and ub/ap gave some weird beats too
and heck do any of u all play on cake still lol

I was tilt player and now ps player and i hate carbon with all my soul!

word

its like this if you cant win on any site its rigged if you win on any certain site you love it well there all rigged i don't see the dealer and seeing is beleiving..

I think it would be too hard to prove merge is rigged. Sure sometimes there are really bad beats, sometimes it happens often, but imo none of the online poker sites are rigged.

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Originally Posted by abwil2

Mrlova while i may disagree with your saying merge is not rigged for action. I agree with sample size needed to determine anything. until i have 10k sample size i will remain silent on my rigged for action statement.

Heres a kicker for ya tho isnt the rigged BJ on merge run off the same rng? I think we all agree with casinos online being rigged at a higher % then B&M

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I can't believe you actually think it's rigged...The amount of players that think this is ridiculous. I don't think I've used this term to describe players on PO, but the ones that truly think it's rigged are donks. I said it, they are donks. If you can't understand how online poker works or how the caliber of players playing effect the game then you are nothing more then a losing casual player. Merge has been known for years to have the softest games. They have a player base that is very inexperienced and new to poker. These players call with shit, and sometimes they win. No one here can say they've never gotten lucky, no one here can say they never hit a lucky river card. They can't say those things because we've all gotten lucky, and we've all be unlucky. It's poker, it's not a "rigged" site, or a donks fault you lost. It's the cards, aces don't win every hand. Just like 2-7 doesn't lose every hand. If players can't understand that they will never win. Players need to study their game in order to get better, something 90% of users on here probably don't do. I preach it almost every day in chat, it would be nice to see at least a few start working towards improving their games instead of debating on how they got "merged"

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Originally Posted by AAChipMagnet

Merge is listed as the top site for players being profitable. Probably due to added $ and guarantees or whatever but this stat did surprise me. Nearly 40% are winning players? The closest site was something like 29% or something. Anyway, the river on Carbon does have a life of it's own. No better way to describe it.

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That stat shouldn't be surprising if you've played on Merge for a while. If you're haven't, then I'll give you a little history lesson. Merge has been considered one of the softest online poker rooms since I think 2006. When it used to be poker.com and one skin! The caliber of players have never improved due to the larger sites attracting more experienced players. Due to this, the sharks that did want to get action at mid to lower stakes games are able to take advantage of Merge.

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Originally Posted by Mrlova

I can't believe you actually think it's rigged...The amount of players that think this is ridiculous. I don't think I've used this term to describe players on PO, but the ones that truly think it's rigged are donks. I said it, they are donks. If you can't understand how online poker works or how the caliber of players playing effect the game then you are nothing more then a losing casual player. Merge has been known for years to have the softest games. They have a player base that is very inexperienced and new to poker. These players call with shit, and sometimes they win. No one here can say they've never gotten lucky, no one here can say they never hit a lucky river card. They can't say those things because we've all gotten lucky, and we've all be unlucky. It's poker, it's not a "rigged" site, or a donks fault you lost. It's the cards, aces don't win every hand. Just like 2-7 doesn't lose every hand. If players can't understand that they will never win. Players need to study their game in order to get better, something 90% of users on here probably don't do. I preach it almost every day in chat, it would be nice to see at least a few start working towards improving their games instead of debating on how they got "merged"

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Couldn't have said it better myself .. nicely done.

who here says the blackjack is not rigged is my 1st question? 2ndly,if the blackjack is rigged for profit for Merge ,then why is the poker any different ?

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Originally Posted by tp3rd

who here says the blackjack is not rigged is my 1st question? 2ndly,if the blackjack is rigged for profit for Merge ,then why is the poker any different ?

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fuck merge casino made me loose 80 in 3 minutes... and i didn't notice how...

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Originally Posted by NascarFanSS

I believe what people confuse as Merge being rigged has more to do with the numbers .. when i say numbers I mean the number of strong vs weak players on Merge which imo is like 20% strong / 80% weak. Carbon was loaded with weak players when I first played here 5 years ago and is still loaded with weak players now. For those of you who had never played on a Merge client and came from places like tilt, stars and ub where the numbers were more in the range of 80% strong / 20% weak there is an extremely huge difference in the quality of play. Let's not get mixed up in this good poker vs bad poker like i have been so horrible about because the fact is everyone has a different playing style. Anyone who has played on Stars and Tilt had a specific foreigner they knew to watch out for because of their loose aggressive style of play .. i know i did as well as many others. A lot of weak players couldn't make money on sites like Tilt and Stars because of the amazing amount of strong players in everything from the ring games to the sngs and mtts so they migrated to sites like Carbon where they outnumber the strong players and make money off of each other.lol If you take a look around you will notice the only place on Merge that has any real action from any real players who are there to make money is on the ring games. The differences are to outstanding to even try and compare this network to any other.

The point is that the proof is in the pudding here folks .. The big 3 poker networks that are no longer with us attracted millions of quality players and had the pros to prove it .. Look around and read the forums .. very few experienced and/or quality players will have anything to do with the Merge network and that is why they are loaded with fish who play any 2 cards. The era of being able to play a good solid game of poker with minimal risk of running into bad play is over for now and the new era of playing any 2 cards is in. When you are used to playing 80/20 and have to deal with 20/80 your win to lose ratios get turned completely upside down. Merge has never been in the same league as any of those sites we all miss and it is pointless to expect that from it.

At least we can still play poker and still have a chance at making some cash .. I do thank Merge for providing that!!! lol

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I have said this from day one when I first started here. I said this same exact thing but way shorter. Maybe since you made yours longer nobody will ever say merge is rigged now ;)

some people just need to shut up

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Originally Posted by tp3rd

who here says the blackjack is not rigged is my 1st question? 2ndly,if the blackjack is rigged for profit for Merge ,then why is the poker any different ?

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The casino games on Merge have something like a 98% payback rate. That's very similar to many Vegas casinos. That doesn't mean you're going to only 2% of your buy-in each time you play blackjack. That means in the long run you'll only lose 2% if and only if you're playing perfect basic strategy, something I highly doubt the majority of players do, assuming they even know what basic strategy is. The blackjack games also simulate a shuffle after every hand, so online blackjack is very much like roulette. The hands are independent of each other unlike casino blackjack where the results of one hand directly impact the odds of the following hands.

dont forget u r playing against a computer not a deck of cards hands are preset

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Originally Posted by AAChipMagnet

You all hijacked this thread and made it into a "rigged" thread. The real issue is whether the results are realistic in the near term and also in the long term. True randomness isn't the issue either. Someone winning every hand they decide to play regardless of how its played and hitting the only one or two cards left in the deck ON THE RIVER to win time and time again for a whole tournament is NOT realistic. That's what this thread is supposed to be about. I believe in the long run that every room has pretty realistic results. In the near term though, some sites are better or worse about the suckouts, setups, river takedowns, monster clashes, etc. Carbon is clearly bothering some players or they wouldn't be "complaining" at all. I've also seen all kinds of these hands on all sites. Carbon is by far the worst I've seen though. Bodog/Bovada has been the best. IMHO.

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The fact that you think the results should be consistent in the short term is mathematically and statistically false. Go flip a coin 4 times. Statistically that coin should land on heads twice and tails twice, correct? There is a high probability it will not do that however. In the short term there is variance. It is possible to sit down at a poker table and shove all in 10 hands in a row and win all ten. I don't know where you get your information, or how delusional you are, but no one gets lucky the duration of an entire MTT. Sure, some will get more lucky then others and suckout a few more times. But no one will be shoving non-stop the entire tournament and take it down.

People have been complaining about every site. The majority of players play on Carbon here. I'm sure if we played on Pokerstars we'd have a PS is rigged thread, or if we played on PartyPoker we'd have the PP is rigged thread. We don't have threads for other sites because the majority of the players here are US and we can play on very few sites. As I keep saying, Merge has very loose players. They have an abundant amount of fish and if you can't understand how that effects variance you don't understand the probabilities or odds when it comes to poker.

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Originally Posted by royalpat

dont forget u r playing against a computer not a deck of cards hands are preset

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You're an idiot if this is a truthful post

you are the idiot if you think the hands are dealt like a deck of cards -

Maybe i'm confused about what op is saying, but if the ratio is 20/80 strong/weak, wouldn't good players want to play there? Shouldn't you make more money vs more weak players? Yes you might get sucked out on by a hand you never thought someone would possibly call your preflop raise with, but in the long run, you should be able to profit more from weak calls. Maybe i'm wrong, but that's what i'd think, but then again, i'm probably in the 80% (weak) so what do i know.

I love it when people talk of rigged shit. get over it, chances are you are thinking it's rigged because your A5 got rivered by the AK after flpping 22 pairs. Doesn't sound rigged to me, sounds like justice. Anyways, I do agree with Nascar here though, cause I have made a good amount of money on fulltilt, and on carbon it is much harder. My playing level is still the same, which should be consistent winner, but on carbon, way to many fools chasing their 8% hands and hitting, not rigged...it's just poker.

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Originally Posted by royalpat

you are the idiot if you think the hands are dealt like a deck of cards -

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And you're another fine example of a player you hasn't played enough hands to understand poker yet. I'm sure you'll go on the defensive and say you've been playing poker for a couple years and played in hundred of tournaments. That's not a lot of poker, that's a casual player playing from time to time. Until you live off poker for a few years, or log well over a million hands you can then talk. I did that for a couple years in college, it worked fine back then. I've moved on since then and gone to defending my country instead of making a living off of poker too. I'm sure if I dedicated all my time to learning my weaknesses and how to get better in the games I play I could make a decent living. Not hundreds of thousands of dollars but probably 40-50k if I wanted to. I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to prove to you and everyone else here that they are to inexperienced to understand how to win in this game. If you think the cards aren't dealt like a true deck of cards than you are clueless. You need to play more and above all study you're game. I keep stressing this over and over, you need to study poker to get better. It's not something you can start playing and over night become the next Phil Ivey or Tom Dwan. Those players have logged millions of hands and thru trial and error have gotten better. It takes dedication, something 90% of players don't have. Merge has one of the highest winning rate of players, it's players like you that are in that "coin flip" of bad players. Players that can't understand the odds of the game and players that can't deal with the variance. It's a game of swings, and apparently it's something you "rigged" debaters can't understand.

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Originally Posted by madjek

Maybe i'm confused about what op is saying, but if the ratio is 20/80 strong/weak, wouldn't good players want to play there? Shouldn't you make more money vs more weak players? Yes you might get sucked out on by a hand you never thought someone would possibly call your preflop raise with, but in the long run, you should be able to profit more from weak calls. Maybe i'm wrong, but that's what i'd think, but then again, i'm probably in the 80% (weak) so what do i know.

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You're not confused, you're damn right. Nascar was actually wrong on the numbers, it's actually 44 / 56 I want to say when it comes to MTT's. Merge is a very soft site, you're not going to win millions off the site but you'll definitely win if you're solid enough. And yes, you will make more money off of weak players. Something the weak players here seem to think they can do!!!!

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Originally Posted by Mrlova

The casino games on Merge have something like a 98% payback rate. That's very similar to many Vegas casinos. That doesn't mean you're going to only 2% of your buy-in each time you play blackjack. That means in the long run you'll only lose 2% if and only if you're playing perfect basic strategy, something I highly doubt the majority of players do, assuming they even know what basic strategy is. The blackjack games also simulate a shuffle after every hand, so online blackjack is very much like roulette. The hands are independent of each other unlike casino blackjack where the results of one hand directly impact the odds of the following hands.

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play it and tell me its not rigged. Dealer consistantly gets blackjack or 21 7 times that of the player. Nothing random about that.

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Originally Posted by tp3rd

play it and tell me its not rigged. Dealer consistantly gets blackjack or 21 7 times that of the player. Nothing random about that.

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It's like any other video blackjack or video poker...play a large amount of hands that get back to me. You'll lose but you'll see that you get a 98% ROI. That's assuming you know how to play basic strategy

i do not believe that Carbon is rigged...i used to gdt sucked out on at tilt and stars just like on carbon.....when you play as many hands as you do online its going to happen alot....it 3 n 4 outters are nothing new...people need to learn how take their bad beats and not blame everybody or everything else...including carbon

Everything is rigged, so they say. But even if you disagree, they are randomly generating their money out from us. That's how it actually works.http://imagicon.info/cat/10-2/vbulletin-rolleyes.gif

I'm still fortunate enough to play on Stars but I also play on Merge because of the fact the players (if that's what you want to call the majority on Merge) ARE SOFT!! Soft/weak/bad players WILL make you money. If you are not making $$$ from these players then you may need to re-evaluate your game.

merge had alot of donks, but the traffic is getting better, but merge has to set up on there MTTs there bad....