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Ok I have AQ suited on the button. UTG+1 raises 2.5x and we are @ 40-80. 5k starting stacks. I would post HH but I cant locate it. I have 8k and the utg+1 villain has 7k and is fairly standard in his play, maybe capable of opening a little wide..... but not overtly crazy. Well his open gets 2 callers.... on me on the button. pot size atm around 1k. WWYD?
I will post the post hand results 4 more analysis in a minute. I just dont want people 2 be resilts oriented.
Not a hard decision at all...
You have no value in 3 betting esp with 2 callers to his open and these games are played sooooooo deep and its soooo early... 3 betting puts you in a terrible spot post flop.
Its a simple flat on button see a flop then depends on what happens post flop what your next move is.
If you have any information on the two guys who called his open might even make it a simple fold, but I would flat and see a cheap flop and take advantage of post flop play.
Yeah that's exactly what I did, even though I am not 2 enamored with calling multi-way..... and I am not enamored with folding AQ suited. Here is where it becomes a bitch. Flop comes A82 rainbow. I flop great and have a backdoor flush draw spades. I lead 40% pot after it is checked 2 me. Utg+1 villian folds, and I get called by a flatter in mp. Obviously I feel good about AQ. My image is pretty aggressive as I had run up to 9k in 30 hands with no major confrontations, and not a lot of showdowns. Turn peels a 7 spade. Obviously changes nothing other than giving me nut outs if he has a set. Either way I am content getting it in, so I set up a river shove with another turn bet. River is a 10 and I think damn..... because I thought he had either a qj10 or 9 kicker..... or a set that I can do nothing about. Anyway he checks and I bet enough 2 put him all in, and he shows up with A10. It's just impossible @ the low stakes 2 play low variance lines and win these donkaments. I mean I feel like I never get action frop opener with worse..... and I seem 2 always get fucked by playing optimally. I feel opener had something good which is why I flatted. Am I over analizing a bad beat.... or does folding AQ actually have some merit?
Why bet river? Considering you even thought "damn" when the river came a 10.
Yeah dont see any point in putting him all in on the river. You are only going to get a call from a hand that is better then yours generally, unless he is already pot commited.
Well when he checks river Its difficult 2 believe he rivered 2 pair. I was just putting him on either a hand that was a set or a weaker A. Either way.... you have 2 get max value on hands, and it is absurd 2 think he would check a hand like 2 pair considering what was in the pot. If he had a set gg. Just unlucky he had A10.
He checked and let you hang yourself. Pretty standard play. The getting max value i dont understand. You cant bet the river for value because hes unlikely to call with a weaker hand. You had showdown value but decided to bet and ended up losing alot more than you needed to in that hand.
Sure you gotta get max value but you also gotta try and lose as little as possible when your beaten
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prawney
Lol let me hang myself? Are you insinuating that if he bets river i should fold? He would have had to put me on a total bluff, which is highly unlikely given the action. Because if he thought I had a hand like I did he would logically bet the river. Its just unlucky he had rivered 2 pair...... but I was calling his river shove anyway.... so if he checks it is illogical 2 not get value from hands like AJ A9 or who knows what else. If he is bad enough 2 have called mp with A10 and proceed.... then he is bad enough 2 pay me off with weaker holdings.
Check the river.......
So I am calling a river bet, but not betting 4 value when checked 2 me? Are you remotely serious? I could see if I had a monster stack behind and was worried about getting c/raised...... but I had less than a pot sized bet. Unless I was live and could read his soul.... I would never check the river back there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prawney
I agree with checking the river also
There is no point in betting the river it does nothing for you and gives you NO value. He is not folding anything better than AQ and if he calls he is going to have AQ beat. Your better off just checking and seeing his hand. Your hand has a lot more showdown value then betting the river.
But how can you call a hypothetical river bet by him which would be less than pot sized but not bet 4 value? I guess I may have folded if he had shoved the river because I would have found it difficult for him to find a bluff. Having said all that I feel it is closer than I initially thought. All in all, I just got unlucky. I was musing to myself," is folding pre flop actually a viable/optimal play given the action and stack sizes."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpettit2
I don't think I would of folded the hand preflop no matter what. With the other 3 in the pot, you are getting pretty decent pot odds and a good chance to be paid off on nut flush. Only way i fold is if the have reads on other two callers and they are straight nits.Quote:
Originally Posted by sickread23
Its all about putting yourself in the BEST possible situations and avoiding risk. Just an unfortunate situation but betting the river is just putting yourself at more risk because he is calling with a range but better than AQ and he isnt folding say AK or set ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by sickread23
So you raise the river and what hands you beat are gonna call you? AJ maybe. All weaker hands will likely fold. All better hands call. You talk about playing optimally. Checking behind is the Optimum play.
Betting the river is just pointless. Your max value arguement has no ground because your not getting value from a bet because weaker hands arent calling. Lets say you put 4K into the pot and hes put 4K into the pot. Your hand has showdown value so you check behind. If you have a better hand you win 4K, If he has the better hand you lose 4K. Lets say this time you bet 2K on the river to put him all in. He folds his weaker hands so your 2K is returned and you win 4K . If he has a better hand he calls and you lose 6K. By your own admission there is like 1 hand possibly 2 in which he calls with a weaker hand and you win 6K.
So he has 1 possible hand that makes a river bet profitable. Thats assuming hes even calling with AJ.
Agree completelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Prawney
Yeah I am warming 2 your analysis. Just difficult 2 believe he has a hand that beats me given that he checked. It's just difficult 2 try 2 understand some of these players. I mean if he is a good thinking player he has 2 know that I have a real hand.... or why would I bet the turn 2 set up a river shove. So assuming he is a good player i would reason he would not have A10 in that spot given the fact that a good player is not likely 2 play a hand like A10 in that spot becuase it is so easily dominated. Now on the flip side.... if I think he is a bad player..... which fwiw I did..... then I can imagine that he would call with weak Aces.... and I would also conclude that he would bet 2 pair on the river. I mean I really thought he was bad..... and he was..... and I also really thought that a 10 was definately in his kicker wheelhouse. But given the fact that he checked and I thought he was bad I bet. I think you would be surprised how many top regs on merge would bet there 2. In reality.... I think its semantics....... not really imo anything overtly right or wrong with checking/betting river. One of those rare spots where both options imo are about break even. Good analysis though Prawney.... I think you definitely turned a definite bet in my mind.... into prolly a check given the fact that if it is nearly break even... then i would have been in a lot better spot 2 have checked and kept my stack in a great spot. I took the higher variance line.... and as I continue 2 type I think I really do like a c/back on the river. HUH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prawney
Have to agree with prawn, don't see shoving river, at that point I'd have to think , after he checks river that he's only calling a shove if he has top pair beat. I understand wanting to get more value if he has A 9 or A J, but I think I'd be content with the pot size and min loss if he has better handQuote:
Originally Posted by sickread23
In this spot its not so much if he has a hand that beats you. Its whether or not he has a hand that he will call with that doesnt beat you. On this board there isnt really a hand other than maybe AJ that will call and your ahead of. When you factor in you win the same size pot when you check behind and when you bet and he folds it makes it clear that betting does nothing for you here except putting more of your stack unneccessarily at risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by sickread23
Fwiw betting instead of checking behind when i had showdown value used to be one of the biggest leaks in my game.
Just a smooth call and see a flop. Getting really good pot odds.
no way u can fold sometimes just gotta make them take your money
I would push, seems like if you dont then you would be sorry, nothing wrong with going out on a good habd
always ask yourself with wich hands you may get called. on river only he would call your bet with better hand than your AQ and if he fold to your bet you did get what if u did check.
Check if the board becomes dangerous ;) dont risc all......
very simple....ur move if to fold.....or if u watched batman rises within the last week or 2 you could put ur cape on and be a hero and push all in but im sure whoever if flatting behind prolly has u beat with a mid pair and if no scary cards coming they arent folding!!! be the real hero and fold!!
i dont play AQ because every time o get in the AK :( nastie hand!
I would have paid to see the flop and if it didnt hit I would of folded it. with the A hitting the flop i would have probaly played it pretty much the way you did. i dont think i would of shoved on river.
That for me would be an easy decision to just call and see what happens with the flop.
I would have checked the river, definitely.
Just fold pre-flop and you won't have to worry about it, lol.
If it was me i wouldve check-called the turn and river (depending on the situation). I think single pairs are over rated. On low stakes i see people go all-in with top pair with a decnt kicker and they NEVER win. If i hit the flop like you did i wouldve bet flop like you did to get rid of people with draws or low pairs that can turn into 2-pair then id have tried to keep the pot as small as possible. I dont mind what you did, usuallly he wouldve commited even if the 10 didnt come. Now i have a hand that you CANT get away with. I was grinding on pokerstars on a $0.01-$0.02 blind level 6-max table. My BR was around $7 so i entered into the table with $1.60. i managed to get up to $2 on the table. I was on the small blind with J,J. UTG raised to 3x there was one caller, so i called too hoping for a low board or a set. Flop came 2c, 8c, Jh. I bet about $0.1 and had the UTG raiser call, other caller folded. I put him on maybe A,J, KJ, QJ or any overpair or a flush. He was to act last on turn/river. Turn came 2h giving me a full-house :) on these stakes people usually bet with what i had put him on sobchecked to him. Sure enough he bet about 0.15 increasing the pot to $0.53, i raised to around $0.40, he called. Pot was $1.18 (around 3/4 of my stack, he had me covered). River came Ks. i bet $0.70, he raised all-in, i snap called. He turned over Kings. Lost the $4.10 pot :( ive grinded my way back to over $6 :)
what I don't understand is you thought he either had a set, or the 10 f'd you so why do you put him all in when you think he's got you beat?? of course he checked the river, you've been the aggressor since the flop came, if he bets there you might slow down and actually put him on something like 2 pair and make a good fold. I'm willing to bet had you not forced him all in he would have shoved to what ever bet you made. really though I'm baffled about why you put him all in if you think he has you beat