fold AA preflop?

There's some debate about this. I have done it before - incredibly rare of course. I had a deep stack late in a tourney before the bubble and was at a table with a few other deep stacks. I picked up AA in big blind, and after a small stack went all-in, both deep stacks (both had me covered) went all in on top. I know that AA does not do good in multi-all ins and wanted to ensure that not only I made the money, but still had a chance to win the tourney. So I folded and watched the cards make a monster for one of the big stacks and felt great about my play. I went on to the final table wondering if I stumbled upon a secret - or maybe it was just luck that I wasn't going to triple up that hand.

Anyone else try this - or maybe you think its crazy?

Thats poker… Any two cards are live until the end. I just went out near the bubble with AA… Lesson learned is don't go all in pre flop near the bubble!

there are actually several valid reasons to fold aa preflop - and that is one of them. though in your situation you were trying to cash and play it safe - which is what i like to do as well - as long as you get to the final table you can always win it. - but some subscribe that winning is everything and then the right move is to call and pray for the best = if you win you got a great chance to win it all- the only close call is that there were only 3 others in the hand - if it was 4 others and you then a fold is a greater play

It definitely depends on how many people are in the hand. I would probably call depending on the stakes in the tournament and how close it was to the final table. Then again, I'm a pretty bad poker player :)

No, no , no and no. I understand the situation you were in (near the bubble and covered in chips) but, the short stack was short stacked and could have just trying to steal the blinds with ANY TWO cards. The first deep stacked guy probably read this as well and was expected to be light (Axs, 22-99, SCs,). The second guy however, could have identified what the first guy was doing, thus getting it in with a range that he considered was crushing the first guy due to that situation. So we can put the second guy who went all in with a range like this: KQs, AQo, AQs, AKo, AKs, TT-KK.

Ok, so putting all this info into an odds calculator we get something like this: first guy we gave 60% of hands, Second guy we gave 15% of hands, and third guy we gave 5% of hands. And of course we give you Pocket Rockets to close the action.

Against 3 players all in pre-flop you have 61% equity. They all have around 13% equity against YOUR actual hand. This is a dream spot to Triple up in a situation where everyone will be pushing super light due to the bubble mechanics and ICM pressure. To win in the FT, the more chips you have the better the chances for you to win it. Had you tripled up in that spot, your chances of winning would've been greater than the value of any min cash.

In conclusion, this was a terrible mistake given that circumstances. Remember, the fact that you would've lost for whatever reason doesn't justify a bad play. Don't be results oriented, always look for the best spots to maximize value and improve your chances of winning.

Cheers,
TheRomeo2K

I'm with TheRomeo. That's too conservative, even if it means you miss the money that time.

I folded KK on the bubble short stacked a while back. My thinking was, even if i quadruple up the odds of me even making the first pay bump were still not good, so i mucked it and ended up making the min cash. I took a TON of shit from people here about it. I didn't care because I truly thought I made the right decision. I think that a lot of the time, in tournament poker survival is more important than equity. So in your case it really all comes down to this, are you willing to sacrifice equity in order to guarantee your survival? Obviously you are.

Against 3 hands like this the absolute best case you are 71% to win, so you will still lose(or tie) 29% of the time, so more than 1 out of 5 times you will bust. Worst case scenario you are about 51% so you will lose (or tie) %49 of the time, so basically 1 out of 2 times you will bust. So you have to decide if you are willing to risk your tournament life on a hand where u will lose 29-48% of the time. While I disagree with your decision as it is one I wouldn't make myself, I will not call it a mistake on the button of a tournament, i would just call it a judgement call. Ultimately anytime you call an all in preflop you are gambling and I would never call choosing not to gamble(especially with your whole stack) a mistake.

never bone it but wish i did a few times

I never fold them pf. I can't win mtt's very often so i wanna get first to make up for the losses. if i bust i lose 1 buy in but if i trip or quadruple up i can win many more times the buy in. even if your still short stack still you have a much better chance of getting to the good money. I guess it has alot to do with the payout structure as well.

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Originally Posted by Theromeo2k

No, no , no and no. I understand the situation you were in (near the bubble and covered in chips) but, the short stack was short stacked and could have just trying to steal the blinds with ANY TWO cards. The first deep stacked guy probably read this as well and was expected to be light (Axs, 22-99, SCs,). The second guy however, could have identified what the first guy was doing, thus getting it in with a range that he considered was crushing the first guy due to that situation. So we can put the second guy who went all in with a range like this: KQs, AQo, AQs, AKo, AKs, TT-KK.

Ok, so putting all this info into an odds calculator we get something like this: first guy we gave 60% of hands, Second guy we gave 15% of hands, and third guy we gave 5% of hands. And of course we give you Pocket Rockets to close the action.

Against 3 players all in pre-flop you have 61% equity. They all have around 13% equity against YOUR actual hand. This is a dream spot to Triple up in a situation where everyone will be pushing super light due to the bubble mechanics and ICM pressure. To win in the FT, the more chips you have the better the chances for you to win it. Had you tripled up in that spot, your chances of winning would've been greater than the value of any min cash.

In conclusion, this was a terrible mistake given that circumstances. Remember, the fact that you would've lost for whatever reason doesn't justify a bad play. Don't be results oriented, always look for the best spots to maximize value and improve your chances of winning.

Cheers,
TheRomeo2K

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Those approximate stats were going through my head during the decision. In the end, I thought that I could afford to wait for a better opportunity to risk my monster stack.

I think there is something strange about this. It happens to me sometimes while on the bubble. I get hand that I think is going to win and you several that put you all in. If you call u lose the hand, i hated when this happens

it really boils down to whether or not cashing was essential to your bankroll - if this was your last money then your move was good -

I never fold them pf. I can't win mtt's very often so i wanna get first to make up for the losses. if i bust i lose 1 buy in but if i trip or quadruple up i can win many more times the buy in. even if your still short stack still you have a much better chance of getting to the good money. I guess it has alot to do with the payout structure as well.

Here's the thing: if cashing the mtt is THAT critical to your bankroll you fold to preserve large stack, you don't belong in that mtt. If you are short stack and its that important to at least min cash you fold a possible double up with a premium hand, you don't belong in that mtt. Bankroll management come on... how much of roll was invested in that game to make you fear playing AA? My guess is you usually get close to almost bust usually by that time of tourney to be that tight.

I can see ONLY two reasons to fold AA pre, and neither have anything to do with bubble. 1. more than 2 opponents going with you to showdown AND loss would mean more then 65% loss of stack. Or 2. desperately need to fold for fixing bad image/molding a table image and are enough of a table or tourney CL to not be negatively affected by punting those chips.

In addition, The only thing bubble should influence is how you can take advantage of the players intimidated by it. If it negatively affects play due to fear of not cashing, again you shouldn't be in that mtt.

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Originally Posted by buonafide

So I folded and watched the cards make a monster for one of the big stacks and felt great about my play.

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And if 2 aces flopped how would you have felt, just as relieved? All you're saying here is you got lucky that your rockets whiffed lol

i almost folded aa once, once. I knew i was going lose hand i told my bud watch i got aa and going to lose. well there was 4 players already all in and ya i called and ya i lost, it was a cheap sitngo but a valuable lesson learned.

As ppker goes its not all about stats and such. Sometimes gut feelings are by far the best option.. No one can win a turny before final table(or bubble), so sacrificing your self by gambling 4way is not the best move. Yes you may have a very slight edge very slight, but is it worth risking your tunry life and a cash to try and win the turny right then? HELL NO!!! Only gamblers will tell you , you made a bad decision. Id rather have 10 cashes then one win. Now im not saying i dont want to win but i also know "in order to win it , you must be in it". The only place you can win it from is the final 2, you cant win a turny before that ever!!

Its a tough fold but you made the right play, to hell with the odds. Only a real player(not a gambler) can fold aces.. Even as the old OG player Brunson used to say "aces will win small pots and/or lose big ones".

u have to go All In, is the best Hand in preflop u wint most of times

I have leaned both ways with Aces. It seems that more times then not I will win with them. I really look at the table play before I decide if I am going to fold them or not. Every situation is different.

I can never bring myself to fold AA

I would never fold AA either unless the flop and turn are unreal.

i have folded aces preflop when i was chip leader in a double up and 2 others are all in.

Never fold AA preflop I say never!!!!!!

if its a satellite where like 20 places get through and theres 23 people left, and if you dont play another hand youll comfortably make it through to the target tournament... then yes fold AA

You played smart poker by folding AA in BB to 3 all ins no matter the equity involved. So, where did you finish in the tourney?

There are different conditions in the case of my game to fold AA.
When fighting for a ticket I do it often.
It's hard to do in the game 1vs fold or 1vs2. If I'm not getting into the medium stacks in multipoty from AA, with the biggest stack at the table I play always call if your opponent plays preflop all-in.

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Originally Posted by pikeboy412

i have folded aces preflop when i was chip leader in a double up and 2 others are all in.

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That is crazy preflop I would call and most likely double up, would you have ended up winning or losing that hand after?

I guess you should fold AA Attachment 2826Attachment 2826Attachment 2826