Squatting near the Bubble. Good? Bad? Annoying? Does not matter?

Squatting near the Bubble.

I am curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on near bubble, or bubble play. I myself like to just play threw but I know many use the "squat" technique.

I will add this topic has been touched on many times but I am just curious what the PO masses thoughts are on this subject in 2014....:)

Yesterday I bubbled out of three tourneys and it got me thinking. One of my bubble losses I finished 22nd in a 500 player field. I grinded the tourney for neary four hours only to lose two spots from ITM. I would have easily cashed if I would have just stepped aside until the bubble losses were over and was ITM.

Squatting has always carried a stigma of unsportsmanlike but maybe, just maybe, there is a place for it in online poker!

I am sure there are going to be strong opinions on this topic so I would ask that we try to keep it civil!

***I exclude Live poker as the variable dynamics are drastically in contrast to that of online poker.

in online poker use ANYTHING and i mean ANYTHING that is not cheating to get the edge

depends.. i love that answer, but its true. 1-depends on my bankroll if im in a position (good br) i love stealing the blinds at this point when most players tighten up. I attack the middle stacks. 2- says its my last $1 my goal is to cash, I will slow the game down and pull up other tables to watch the short stacks to see if they go all in, than try to get top 5 stack for the ft.

I'm against it. I don't mind when others do it, but it doesn't add any benefit with my style. If I have a decent chip stack, I want more hands before the blinds go up to take advantage of my stack. If I'm short stack I want to see as many hands before the blinds go up so I can hopefully find a shove worthy hand. My goal is to build my stack, not min cash. And frankly, I believe I have a better chance at making the min cash if I play this way instead of letting my stack get desperately low, and obviously I will have a much better chance at a deep run.

I have had a couple exceptions to this rule, and that was basically when I was watching other tables and the shortest stacks were sitting out. In that case I would rather just wait for them to blind out and I will run the timer and play more conservatively, because a min cash is almost guaranteed at that point. I believe when someone wants to use this tactic, it's important to watch the other tables and see what's going on there.

My biggest pet peeve is when someone that stalls isn't paying attention and keeps stalling when we get hand for hand. That is freaking annoying. Any other time I don't mind when other players stall.

Good thread and good advice so far: Don't go into squat mode automatically, but use it when the situation dictatese.

i do it - especially if your low stacked and no hope of winning - i just did in a freeroll and took 8 bucks - with 3 from bubble i had 2k and first had like 100k so it was worth it

Whatever it takes to get to the money if you ask me

always take a prize even if its min.

The idea is to get into the money. If you are low stack that that's the best way to get there then its a fair strategy. Once in the money a lot can happen. I have noticed that in freerolls and low stakes tournaments as soon as players are in the money they get real loose. A lot of all-ins and calls. If you bide your time you find you have moved up a few notches on the payout chart without having to do much. That makes squatting worthwhile.

PS - There is usually some jackwagon at the table telling you to hurry up. Put him on mute and build your bankroll.

I like to use this time to steal blinds while others are "Squatting" as typically my goal is to get into the final table with a healthy stack so I have a shot at top 3 and I find this will increase my odds of getting there.

I prefer to chip up on the bubble. I prefer to go for a win as opposed to merely making the bubble. Losing chips while waiting for bubble to pop can hinder your ability to get up there. I never play JUST to cash, I always play to win.

I hate this strategy. It guarantees you (AT BEST) the min cash and may end up still bubbling if other tables are doing this too. The negative side of this is you are limiting the number of hands you will see to get a double up. Instead of having 8bb and 10 hands to get a double up, you will end up having 4bbs and 5 hands to get a double up. The longer the bubble last the more negative the results are.

Lets say you effectively make the bubble 80% of the time with 2bbs and then min cash for a 25% profit on the buyin and the other 20% you bust out because other tables are doing same thing and you end up one spot short. We will use a $2.20 buy in to figure out the EV. 10 tournaments you get in this spot and you cash for $2.75 8 times and cash for $0.00 2 times for a total of $22.00 from $22.00 buyins for an Estimated value of $0.00.

2 times @ $0.00 = $ 0.00
8 times @ $2.75 = $22.00
less buyins =-$22.00

EV of $0.00 and $0.00 profit each time you use this strategy

Compare this to getting a double up 60% of the time and moving up a little from a min cash, and possibly running it up 20% of the time to a real stack and having a shot at the bigger prizes for the top spots. We will use a conservative estimate of $7.50 for that 20 percent assuming first place of a $2.20 tournament is $50 - $60 we will assuming when we do run it up we end up getting combination of finishes between 18th and 1st. I want to make this number small to show you don't have to get first or even 5th place once to make this profitable. If you end up getting in final 18th once this is a much more profitable play.

4 times @ $0.00 = $ 0.00
4 times @ $3.25 = $13.00
2 times @ $7.50 = $15.00
less buyins =-$22.00

Total EV would be $ 6.00 or .60 profit each tournament

So while you will cash more often by time banking you will show less profit (assuming you have a good push fold game).

While I won't yell at people for doing this (they bought in just like me and can play their tournament how they like), It does hurt everyone at the table by not allowing them to see more hands to get their money in good and try for a double up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bartonjoel

good point a..b..etc

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read the post, read it again, and anytime you think about stalling to make itm for min cash, read it again. There's only TWO game types where this MIGHT be +ev, rebuy/addons where you only buy in once and don't do addon, and games with HUGE overlay

Well I just did that squatting technique last night in the BCP freeroll and it actually worked,,,,LOL...It felt dirty as hell but it worked! I don't know that I could do that always.

I slow it way down when I get into the ten big blind range and the antes are in effect or affect(I like to slow it down in this situation because you play less hands so you pay out less in antes and the small stacks on the other tables are likely to bust out of the tournament so give more time to do so.)
If there's no antes and I'm in the ten big blind range then I want to play as fast as possible so that I can see a bunch hands to get a really good hand/position to shove all in with.
If I have a decent size stack then I usually try to steal blinds by playing a little more aggressively.

I used to go for ITM,now unless I'm in a sattelite I go for the win .Look at the prize structure the next time your in a tourney ,you aim for the top because that's were the money is,and if people are freezing at the bubble that's when you go aggressive and get the edge.

i use that alot of the time some get pissed at me for doin it but hey its part of winning anyway you can thats what i say anyway.keep up the good work i know i am.

depends on the prize structure, but i would say that the bubble is a good time to steal a few blinds if theres an opportunity since most people will be playing very tight.

i like doing it but afraid ill get beat

Fold to the Gold! I sometimes go as far as using up the extra time just to get in the money. Especially if I'm low on chips. I just watch the other table to pass the time, hoping someone calls an all-in and gets knocked out.

play to win---
it really depends on the person. If you have no bankroll and you really need that money to play then squat away. But if you want to play real poker then you play to win-

Yeah, this is totally something that should be used only in certain situations. If you want to win, squatting will take some chance away from that - but there are circumstances that you may just need to fold 50x in a row near the bubble because other players are making moves before you. If you're the small stack, its time to push and pray - nobody should be happy with making the first position in the money.

Squatting is fine by me, just another part of the game.

the squatting part gets annoying but it is part of the game.... gotta watch out for those set up hands around that time

i folded pocket qs once in a live game and showed and people thought i was crazy but i made it to the money

if you are trying to just slip into the money you should play cash vs tourney

I usually play though and when I lose right before the bubble I always think why did I not sit haha. But I think in a bigger tournament I would sit to make the money and have a decent pay day smaller I wouldn't.

If your opponents are rocks abuse the bubble.

if im short stacked I never slow my play down but I will fold a lot when close to the bubble just to try and make the money..seems that with online poker if your short stack and go all in at the bubble that all a big stack has to do is call with any 2 and they will end up winning the hand....if im mid to big stack ill play regular or get a little more aggressive...ppl tend to play less hands when close to the bubble so sometimes you can do a lot of blind stealing