playing JJ with an ace on board

i final tabled a $3 pot 1/2 hold em 1/2omaha hi/lo tournament the other day and this hand came up.
i have about 30k in chips with blinds at 400-800.
i have the button and the cutoff raises and i pot it to 6000 with JJ.
the cutoff for all intensive purposes seems like a tricky but solid player, he has definitely done some bluffing and raised quite a few pots.
the flop comes down A42 with 2 hearts. villain checks and i bet 5000, villain check raises all in, and we have about the same starting stack.

you have 19,000 left...WHAT DOES THE VILLAIN HAVE?

PS: dont tell me you fold because he obviously has an ace!

instead, tell me what you think he has and why u think he has it

the only thing he would slow play is trips or a/x
why would he let u get commited before going all in with his flush draw. it would be better for him to push in position

Would have to say it depends on which 2 cards are suited? assuming it's a full table and it's folded to the cutoff, his opening range is pretty wide but calling the re-raise narrows it a bit. being it's pot limit i would put him on either A10 or above or some kind of suited connectors with get postflop potential or large PP.

The postflop action I think rules out large PP with the exception of AA but I would expect a 4-bet preflop with AA therefore unlikely he has AA. KK, QQ would have a hard time check-shoving.

The shove postflop is indicative of a monster hand (trips but AA, 22 and 33 unlikely or straight but 35 is unlikely too given the flat of a 3-bet) or monster draw where he wants to win the pot now but has enough outs if he gets called he doesn't mind putting his money in. Therefore I would put him on something like 56 of hearts - where he has both a flush and straight draw. Or if it's the 42 that's suited then maybe Ax suited to heats where he has tp but a redraw to the nut flush.

Also I think it's tough to bluff that spot. What is he representing if he is bluffing? If he's representing a big ace it has to be AK and since you 3-bet preflop a big Ace is well within your range as well.

PS - next time can you give us the pot pre/post flop. i'm too tried to figure it out and pot-limit is all about pot-odds

easy fold, If ace doesnt beat, Tan a multitude of other hand can, why go out looking dumb against A 2

thoughts runnings through my head when he check shoved. i automatically ruled out AA and for that matter any pair jacks or better because he would have 4 bet me 100% given the image i had on him. i also ruled out AK AQ bc i was also quite sure given how i had seen him play that he would have 4 bet. the only logical aces i could see him having were A8-AJ. but the problem with these hands that was going through my head was that he has to be scared of me having AK OR AQ in this specific spot so i didnt see how he could raise. furthermore,A4 AND A2 were out of his range in my head because he wasnt the type of player to call out of position with these hands. going through this analysis qiuckly during the 1 min time bank i surmised that he could have air or maybe sumthin like KQ hearts. remember i told you he had shown down some bluffs and was quite capable of bluffing this spot i thought. i made the hero call because i could not put him on any ace. as it turned out i was right, but instead he had 22! i failed to consider this hand pretty much altogether but even looking back dont really understand the call. playing out of position with 22 facing a 3 bet to me just seems silly. with nearly every flop excluding that with a 2, hes going to check/fold. as it turns out i was right that he didnt have an ace and looking back on this hand i only regret not thinking about one important factor. WAS THIS PLAYER CAPABLE OF BLUFFING OFF HIS WHOLE STACK?

roflwhatamoron

easy....if you are deep stacked you bet for information. if you are short stack you should have pushed pre. if you are medium stack you have to be careful. if its a long winded tourney you have the option of waiting for better opportunities. if its a quick structure tournament you are foolish if you fold, you cant be afraid of the overcard. sometimes it gets you in trouble sometimes it creates valuable gains to your stack. especially if your image is correct and you have a wild aggressive image thats hard to read. people will call you with weaker hands like J10 suited to try to connect or KQ, even KJ. the other important variables to consider is the utility gained/lost getting involved in the hand and how late in the tournament you are. Thats my say on playing JJ with an A on the flop.

oh and the other tendancies of the players involved, but really, that should go without say. some people will play any suited ace and once you have that information your decision is easy. maybe i shouldnt give away all my valuable strategies though ahahah

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Originally Posted by Singertime63

roflwhatamoron

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thin line between genius and donkey. if i think i got the best hand ill go with it. some people dont have the heart to call in that spot even if they think there oppponent is bluffing.

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Originally Posted by thinknhurtz

easy....if you are deep stacked you bet for information. If you are short stack you should have pushed pre. If you are medium stack you have to be careful. If its a long winded tourney you have the option of waiting for better opportunities. If its a quick structure tournament you are foolish if you fold, you cant be afraid of the overcard. Sometimes it gets you in trouble sometimes it creates valuable gains to your stack. Especially if your image is correct and you have a wild aggressive image thats hard to read. People will call you with weaker hands like j10 suited to try to connect or kq, even kj. The other important variables to consider is the utility gained/lost getting involved in the hand and how late in the tournament you are. Thats my say on playing jj with an a on the flop.

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this was a pot limit tourney not no limit. Shoving was not an option preflop

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Originally Posted by donny111

thoughts runnings through my head when he check shoved. i automatically ruled out AA and for that matter any pair jacks or better because he would have 4 bet me 100% given the image i had on him. i also ruled out AK AQ bc i was also quite sure given how i had seen him play that he would have 4 bet. the only logical aces i could see him having were A8-AJ. but the problem with these hands that was going through my head was that he has to be scared of me having AK OR AQ in this specific spot so i didnt see how he could raise. furthermore,A4 AND A2 were out of his range in my head because he wasnt the type of player to call out of position with these hands. going through this analysis qiuckly during the 1 min time bank i surmised that he could have air or maybe sumthin like KQ hearts. remember i told you he had shown down some bluffs and was quite capable of bluffing this spot i thought. i made the hero call because i could not put him on any ace. as it turned out i was right, but instead he had 22! i failed to consider this hand pretty much altogether but even looking back dont really understand the call. playing out of position with 22 facing a 3 bet to me just seems silly. with nearly every flop excluding that with a 2, hes going to check/fold. as it turns out i was right that he didnt have an ace and looking back on this hand i only regret not thinking about one important factor. WAS THIS PLAYER CAPABLE OF BLUFFING OFF HIS WHOLE STACK?

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if he did have KQ of hearts you are technically behind on the flop and a marginal favorite against any flush draw. IMO i think it's a tough spot to bluff given the preflop action and you are really just flipping, at best, given his range.

I would have snap folded and would have put him on two pair. Not necessarily an ace either. I get the feeling from your description that this guy might have called with 2-4 to bluff after the flop and then when he hit check raise you.

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Originally Posted by joefine

if he did have KQ of hearts you are technically behind on the flop and a marginal favorite against an open ender or any flush draw. IMO i think it's a tough spot to bluff given the preflop action and you are really just flipping, at best, given his range.

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ya the play was definitely marginal theres no question. the problem was in my head AIR was part of his range. i thought it was possible given how he had been playing that he could make the play hoping i have any hand but an ace and get me to fold. and after i put in the money i already had i didnt mind flipping against KQ given the size of the pot (about 44k) im getting over 2 to 1 being just about even money.
no doubt i made the wrong descision, the only part i regret is not asking myself the question i posted at the end of my earlier comment. in addition, i woulda been left with 20 bbs 4 handed, which is basically equvalent to 10 or less at a full table since there gonna be coming around much quicker.

the only thing he would slow play is trips or a/x
why would he let u get commited before going all in with his flush draw. it would be better for him to push in position

holaaaaaaaaaaaa me gustariaaaaa saber mas sobre los passwoorddd graciassssssss

In a PL tourney people are likely to play it to the river once there commited `so your odds arent to good in that spot but there more likey to play there hands to river either way.

complitly

the only thing he would slow play is trips

why would he let u get commited before going all in with his flush draw

Im shore he had an ace xD gl!

if its been folded round...villain could have bet with any two cards if he's a half decent player....sure...but to call the cut/off raise...hmmm...

he only flat called yer 3 bet pre...so unless he's trappin ya, it rules out AA...but ya never know
AK/Q...why not....would he have 4 bet pre with AK..?...possibly....

35HH...that would kinda suck...if he's got that tho he played the hand wrong tho...so i dont think its 35 hh...

KQ hearts tho would be a very good all in semi bluff....i like the move....you gotta have a vaguely nuttish hand to call it down....AK is a donkish minimum...2 pr preferably...a set to be on the safe side...presuming he aint got 35hh...

35 sooted...certainly possible ....why not defend yer raise...esp if yer thinkin yer gonna make an all in (semi) bluff play on the flop / turn regardless..

you been at the same table for a while...?...had villain seen you fold to all in raises before..?...the all in move with the flush draw is certainly power poker...good fold equity...and good drawing odds too if villain is drawing...

he neednt have an ace at all tho...444 or 222 would play the same way.....

so...for a range of hands..i would say...

KQ hearts
A 4/2 sooted
35 sooted
44
22



glgl to ya..:)

thats hard go in lose stay lose go out lose just play u will make the right choice

:cool:if jj would have to throw in the pot and let it carry ek

Unfortunately crappy people play that tourney. Not all ofc, but most of them. If you can survey the first hour with all those re-buy and add-on, then is a good chance to take a small prize. I did, several times, but would have been easy without the possibility to buy your way up.

play jj as you would a low pair in my opnion..i only stay with jj with a aa on brd if i have a str8 draw and min bet or check..mcuk jj alot if you want to stay alive in the game..gl

fold dat shyt

When i have JJ i always try to keep from seeing a flop. we already know that merge has a deck with alot of aces in it. if you see a flop your bound to have an ace on it.

jj depends on my chip stack if i didnt push i check if its cheap enuf ill cont.

I'd say with the given circumstances he had a big hand (obvs.) :cool: Im gonna go out on a limb and say one of his cards was an Ace. This because of the preflop action and his check raise.. If he had AA it would make more sense for him to smooth call. But it would make more sense if he had like AQ AK AJ suited, or not suited; raising all in to make it a tough decision if you had a flush draw.

it dose not mean he have A, mby he had 2 hearts...