PokerOwned MOD Priorities.....

Having the luxury of working from a home office I am able to be here on PO in one form or another 16 hrs a day, sometimes more. Perhaps I have no life, but that is a mater aside. :)

The thrust of this writ is to question the MODs on what they consider to be "important" in terms of maintaining a drama free environment in CHAT, and protecting the image of this site.

I ask this because I regularly see racial, homophobic, misogynistic terms used in chat. Only rarely relative to the number of those occurrences do I see warnings issued to those using such terms. Threats of violence are common place as well, the likes and frequency of which were they uttered in a more public forum would spark some measure of law enforcement involvement.

(By public I mean more popular as there is little to prevent ANYONE from viewing PO chat if they want to. As for Law enforcement, I did at one time work for The Toronto Star and we regularly involved local, and even Provincial authorities where threats of violence were repeatedly uttered by some individuals who used our online services.)

It is usually (though not always) the same people day after day after day here..... most of the time they get warnings, often several. Sometimes those warnings are headed, often they are not and a 30 min ban is given. How effective is this? Well the answer is usually in the question. In this case if the question has to be asked then it obviously isn't very effective at all. Evidence the same individuals getting banned regularly for the same reasons they were banned the last time, and the time before that. What is most amusing is that rather then these individuals getting banned for longer periods for repeated violations, they seem to get longer and longer leashes before they get banned the next time. I don't want to mention any one individual here but I am certain we can all think of examples in our head. I'll provide a few privately to any MOD who wishes to challenge this assertion.

The question will be asked of me, as it has been asked of me before "What do you want us to do?", I feel the answer is never taken seriously or brought forward by any of the MODS save for one who at least listens. I get the impression however that they meet resistance to change from the other MODs who I frankly see as being more concerned with maintaining friendships and avoiding confrontation. Back to the question though....

What do I want....

I want a clear set of guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable in main chat... not the current moving set of goal posts. I guess what I am saying is that this site is getting big, growing up. ZAB would find it much easier to deal with people like whorebot for example, if he had a Terms Of Service (TOS) that one had to agree to as part of the sign in procedure. Call it a Code Of Conduct if you prefer.

I want a measured and even handed enforcement of the above, to wit stop with the repeated warnings over and over again. When you do this NOBODY takes you seriously anymore. They will push the limits further and further every time. I know this, I DO THIS...to make a point. Warn once..... in chat AND via PM. That's it.

Stop giving repeated offenders, ABUSERS, license to do the same things day after day after day. If they KNOW they are only getting a 30 min ban each time, they will push the envelope EVERYTIME. How about 30 mins on the first and maybe even the second offence, 60min the third, 24 hrs each thereafter? More serious offences MUST have even harsher consequences. Further, when it gets to the point that people are getting 24 hr bans, their accounts should be given mandatory review for possible perma-ban.

Now, my original question, the subject I raised regarding MOD priorities. I will admit that the trigger for me writing this missive tonight was that I was banned in chat for 30 min. I was banned without warning of any kind for expressing my repeated and undying love of Pooffy. I expressed thusly in four successive entries to main chat which even I would admit could be considered spam. I don't take issue with the ban, and as LIL'G can tell you I was even laughing about it when it happened. I was not laughing out of obstinacy or defiance. Rather, I was laughing at the irony of such a ban given the issues I had partially raised above on previous occasions. It seems that the MODS are more concerned with "BIG PICTURES" and some types of SPAM in chat (but not all, and not always), not to mention being "friends first" with everyone, then they are with any of the issues I raised above. These are Issues I have raised with many of them privately and regularly.

I ask you, what do you think is more likely to drive people away from this site: people who abuse others, or those who sometimes spam chat? Both are ban-able in my books sure, but which deserves INSTABAN?

Before you answer that, let me tell you I am in regular contact with a number of former members of this site on other forums...... I think it is safe to say YOU know the reason they chose to leave. I'm not even touching the painful subject of scams and scammers here.

Lastly, I have taken measures to ensure that this post or it's original content does not simply vanish at the whim of a MOD who doesn't like and/or doesn't understand the nature what I am trying to accomplish with this simple document. If you can read all of the above and somehow reason that I am looking to stir up controversy, I put it to you that you are either completely missing the point or you get the point all to entirely.

Five days later and little has changed :(

check back in 5 more

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Originally Posted by Drywallman3

check back in 5 more

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I seriously hope that is a promise of good things to come and not just a flippant response to an honest expression of frustration.

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Originally Posted by TONelson

I seriously hope that is a promise of good things to come and not just a flippant response to an honest expression of frustration.

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it was half and half, every day us mods talk and discuss on how we can help the site and members concerns. Because the community doesnt see it doesnt mean its not happeneing.

Us mods want to make everyone happy and yes maybe our responses are bot like but that is what we can say until we know a better answer.

We do care about the members and the community and try catch the scammers and yes there is a ton of accounts we have to ban on a daily basis.

Mod priorities..

Keep the peace...

Keep the chat box relatively clean..

About 100 other tasks that go unseen

Thank you for posting your well written frustration, TON..very nicely put.

Here's my 2 cents..

I wonder, how many good/productive/active/intelligent poker people have been chased away due to some of the negative immature chat, which we have seen or read, on a regular basis. Actually, I think the damage has been long done and very unlikely a lot of the 'good' regulars will reappear, given who would want to spend their free time in such an abusive environment...this should be fun for everyone!(I could expand on this, but choose not to..too lengthy) Of course, everyone will have a slightly different definition of fun, but nonetheless..the chat/forum should be fun. Chat bans are great..if they work. But more often than not, the same people involved will commit the same offence over and over again. There should be limitations..a firm guideline. I do believe the mods do what they can to control some of the nonsense, however, I can see just how difficult the job would be trying to stay on top of all the 'scammers' (never liked that word, but seems to be an easy way to describe the irresponsible) or multi accounters, who choose to waste their time begging for stakes or loans or whatever, not to mention simply creating havoc in a lobby, private messages or whatever.

TON's viewpoint has prompted my thoughts. I like this forum. There are a lot of great people here which is the reason I continue to come back, even if I am not participating as much as I once did. Maybe, just maybe..someday there will be a happy medium so everyone may enjoy the site, the way it was meant.

Happy Pokering!

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Originally Posted by Zab

Mod priorities..

Keep the peace...

Keep the chat box relatively clean..

About 100 other tasks that go unseen

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At the risk of offending or sounding condescending... did you even read the original post Zab?

I get that you are busy, and have a hundred and one things to do every time you log in, but you frankly did not address even one of my issues in your response.

Honestly, the fact that I had to raise a stick in chat and bump this 5 day old thread to even get a response from you or one of the MODS is very telling.

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Originally Posted by TONelson

At the risk of offending or sounding condescending... did you even read the original post Zab?

I get that you are busy, and have a hundred and one things to do every time you log in, but you frankly did not address even one of my issues in your response.

Honestly, the fact that I had to raise a stick in chat and bump this 5 day old thread to even get a response from you or one of the MODS is very telling.

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lolol

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Originally Posted by mmmhookers

lolol

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I want to thank you for helping to make my point oh so crystal clear. I'm sure after the account you are using today is banned, you will already have another ready to take it's place. Well done.

I can't believe that this thread has not gained more interest. It seems like more and more people are complaining and feel that the mods are sleeping on the job. Although there have been a few times where I felt i was being "abused"(for lack of a better word) and i wish a mod would have stepped in, I don't really feel that way my self. I am having a hard time deciding how to word this so i am just gonna go for it and hope it isn't misinterpreted. It doesn't really effect the mods if a user is abused by someone and decides not to come back. Sure they may have to delete a ranting thread or something, but there is no lasting consequence. As far as I know they don't share in the profits of the site, sure they get paid points but its not like they get paid based on the number of disputes they stop, so to zab when a member leaves it is one less member to do tasks and earn revenue, but to the mods when a member leaves it is just on less person they have to police. I am not saying that any mods purposely let people get abused just so they will leave. I am just saying that fewer members=less policing. There have also been times where people get into it in a thread and a mod steps in and defends one of them, only to find out that they are actually in the wrong or when a mod will close a thread and then poofy of zab will reopen it, there has to be a little embarrassment to the mod in those instances.Also and I am sure people will deny this, but no one wants people to dislike them, people want to be liked plain and simple so they let things slide and hope people think of them as "the cool MOD" What I am trying to say is that there is more of an incentive to let things go than there is to step in. Its kind of like when u were a kid and saw some on getting bullied on the playground, sure you could step in and risk embarrassment, but if that bully is picking on them, he cant pick on you. All of this is to say that to some of the mods, and certainly not all, (it is really just a few that i can think of) it doesn't really matter to them if someone leaves the site because they feel abused. Maybe someone has an idea on how to light a fire under them and really get them invested in the idea of keeping members active on the site.

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Originally Posted by TONelson

At the risk of offending or sounding condescending... did you even read the original post Zab?

I get that you are busy, and have a hundred and one things to do every time you log in, but you frankly did not address even one of my issues in your response.

Honestly, the fact that I had to raise a stick in chat and bump this 5 day old thread to even get a response from you or one of the MODS is very telling.

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The thing is, not everything is as black and white as you want it to be, everything is situational.
It is hard to stick to reading your post because when the fiction comes in, I lose interest. As of last night there were 3 members in chat complaining that we are censoring too much, and no offense, but you are one that comes into chat daily trying to provoke reactions from ppl that you don't like.

Zab in fact did answer your inquiry pretty accurate, there is no hard set protocall, there can't be, it is left to our discretion. Are we going to handle every situation that makes everyone happy? no. In fact you seemed to answer your own questions in those paragraphs.

Also I am pretty sure we all had to click an agreement to the terms of service upon signing up. (As mentioned in the whorebot example)

I personally feel that when I bring up a legit issue I'm concerned about that it's often perceived as "causing drama". I've learned that I have to step back as soon as a mod gets defensive, and there are some (past and present) that can get defensive very quickly. Getting defensive is a bad sign, it means whatever issue I have is being brushed off. So then I start getting frustrated and feel helpless, which then turns into getting mad at PO. Then I don't want to be as active. I've seen this cycle with many other loyal, long time members. Quite a few have decided PO was not worth the headache and have moved onto other forums, and I really doubt they will be back.

PO has too much value for me on the poker funds side of things, I'm not going anywhere. But the cycle I've mentioned above has definitely made me pull away from the social side of PO in the past. I've learned when I need to redirect my frustrations before I become mad at the mod world, and I would like to think that I get along with all of them now and I want to keep it that way.

The more I'm around though, the more I realize how much is expected of the mods and how little power they have in some areas. They are in a tough position, and I really don't want to cause them any trouble.

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Originally Posted by rghy2

I personally feel that when I bring up a legit issue I'm concerned about that it's often perceived as "causing drama". I've learned that I have to step back as soon as a mod gets defensive, and there are some (past and present) that can get defensive very quickly. Getting defensive is a bad sign, it means whatever issue I have is being brushed off. So then I start getting frustrated and feel helpless, which then turns into getting mad at PO. Then I don't want to be as active. I've seen this cycle with many other loyal, long time members. Quite a few have decided PO was not worth the headache and have moved onto other forums, and I really doubt they will be back.

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With your situation, I completely understand your frustration, the problem was on the flip side you were not creating drama, however there were others then jumping which was and when that happens we kind of have to move it out of chat. Only Zab could fix the problem so it continuing in chat at that point was kind of mute, especially as others were using it as a way just stir up crap.

As for the few that left PO due to the headache who have moved on, they still come back, or at least some do, they just don't go into chat.

There is no way we are going to make everyone happy, there are way too many personalities in the member base for that to be possible.

This kind of reminds me of the 'throwing up of arms' about people not using the new off site trade upgrade, as if this issue cant be stopped. Now I realize that banning people is never a goal, bu why can't more enforcement happen? Give the warning to move argument to channel 2, and if after 1 minute (to give time for chat to refresh and be seen) fight doesnt stop, BAM 30 min right there. If coming back in start up right away, goes to 24 hours, then a week, and if still an issue, perma banned from chat unless proven after time to resolve issues (and i mean months there)

Forum posts the same issue, insta revoke points if spamming or flaming posts, block temp from posting, etc. Scammers shouldn't even be a question, locked out of ANYTHING where points or money changes hands (except for doing tasks), and have to get unanimous vote from mods/zab to reinstate rights after time and repayment,etc.

People will say youre hard asses for maybe a couple weeks, tops. Then everyone will get along better because they understand he alternative and that you're really serious about it

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Originally Posted by s810car

This kind of reminds me of the 'throwing up of arms' about people not using the new off site trade upgrade, as if this issue cant be stopped. Now I realize that banning people is never a goal, bu why can't more enforcement happen? Give the warning to move argument to channel 2, and if after 1 minute (to give time for chat to refresh and be seen) fight doesnt stop, BAM 30 min right there. If coming back in start up right away, goes to 24 hours, then a week, and if still an issue, perma banned from chat unless proven after time to resolve issues (and i mean months there)

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This is what we are doing....

Went off and forgot why i mentioned OS trades lol, If people want your help in those, use the system, if not their loss, and if complaining, remove their posts (outside if scammer warning of course that should be visible). Their fault for not using it, and tough if they think it isn't fair, grow up and be a lil smarter on the interwebz. I wouldn't even entertain helping them outside of blocking scammer from activity until the other member is made whole

The chatbox is just like politics in general. Some people clamor for more regulation, and others feel their rights are being violated by what they deem to be authoritarian over-reach. There is no way to make everyone happy. I think, " The greatest good for the greatest number of people" is applicable here, and for the most part the mods do a decent job. Look @ the whole AZ situation.... the overwhelming majority of PO collectively stood up and said NO MAS, and AZ got a long timeout. Sometimes mods do what I deem to be too little or too much in varying circumstances and situations, but thats going to happen. Someone has too be in control, and those who aren't are bound to disagree from time to time. I think for the most part, chat has been fine. I think that people do use very course/vulgar language, and also sometimes use homophobic/racial slurs; but this just goes to reinforce my perception that said perpetrators aren't all that intelligent. Like I said, I think that the mods do a fairly decent job, and on the rare instances they do get something grossly wrong the community generally weighs in heavily. Idk... perhaps I am rambling incoherently, I have only slept like 4 hours in the past two days 0_o

tbh the problem is when zab does get involved in the chat as with most things/issues etc he doesnt know whats going on/context/people involved or ANYTHING, he sees something, assumes the worst and acts on it, i have no issues with my bans and for the most part deserve them cool off and al is well again, the only times ive really disputed my bans are when zabs done the above everytime hes banned me its been a misunderstanding

same with issues the only way to get zabs attention because hes so "busy" is to make the pm/forum post less than a paragraph otherwise what you say will not get through at all whatsoever


mods try there best but im with rghy they need more power give another mod (prawny) supr mod status and give poof more powers id also suggest employing another dev its all about sharing the load and it seems like he just doesnt wanna do that


when poof was made super mod in the original thread zab said that she would eventually be given more and more powers as time went by..its been months ago and from what i can tell she has the same list of shit she can do that she had before


guidlines need to be set in place for chat but people are gunna tilt always and ill keep saying this section off the chat
kiddy chat
S.O.S chat
staking chat
request access for the bottom 2 (maybe make the market place subforum hidden until access is granted) that way u can monitor better who is trading so u can stop n00bs from setting up trades and scamming/being scammed

a S.O.S sub forum (seriously offensive shit) where ANYTHING goes u dont like summin air it there unmoderated chaos again hidden till access is granted, that way if anything is said thats offensive/insulting/derogative or just uncalled for it can be infracted

finally get rid of bubble chat completely all i ever see on it are people begging for trades/passwords theres no need for it

To be honest, I have read this ridiculously long thread way to many times and still can not determine what type of narcotics are being used here. You people have way to much free time.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDeepStacks

To be honest, I have read this ridiculously long thread way to many times and still can not determine what type of narcotics are being used here. You people have way to much free time.

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This is a good example of how everyone has their own opinion. No one has to answer to this thread, and obviously a few believe some input is better than none..aside from the six letter answers. I think this is good to create some discussion between members who care and hopefully can respond in an adultlike fashion. Again, my 2 cents...

Here's my two bits worth (for you young folks that's a quarter). I agree allowing the same people to be abusive in chat is setting this forum back. I'm not sure why Zab continues to let people do this. To me in should be like the judicial system, 3 strikes and you're out. Ban someone from chat 3 times and then give them a month long ban. If they come back and get banned from chat again, then it's a lifetime ban.

I'm not sure why there isn't more done to stop this, altho there seems to be more policing the chat the last few days. Zab runs this as a business to make money. That's fine, but would any money making firm keep one customer who might be keeping 50 new customers from investing their time and money (points) into that business. It's not a way to run a firm for sure. Don't know if this makes any since, I just woke up. Later Y'all