HAND SCENARIO Vol. I

Would you shove 72 off suit in this situation? Was it a "good play"?

Its the final table, with 8 players left. Blinds are 500/1000 (50 ante), I was under the gun with 4675 chips, and dealt QcQd, pretty standard shove in that situation. It gets folded around to you, the big blind with 7s2d,. You have to call 3675 into a pot that is now 6575. If you call and lose you can barely cover the small blind and antes next hand. If you muck you have 5 or 6 hands before you're the big blind again.

Do you muck, knowing you have a whole round of hands before the big blind comes around? Or do you call and pray?


I got called, and the board proceeded to put 4 spades out there for the 7s2c to win. He/or she defended it saying they couldn't "let me get away with it uncontested". Now, I know I want this call all day long, but not that time. I dont think this player would of called if he knew his odds were barely 11% to win, compared to my 89%.

But what would you do?

I am folding 72 everytime in that situation. Calling with that is like giving up.

Doesnt everyone shove 72o? Seems like a logical shove to me. He clearly didnt want you to gain an edge over him by giving you the walk hhaha

I saw this, and almost puked :(

3675 to win 10250 is paying 35.8% of the pot. 72o vs a hand like AQo wins about 32.5% of the time. With a huge stack say 20k-25K this is a very loose call that can almost be justified if he is hoping to have two live cards. However it is always a -EV call. The problem is when 72o faces an overpair his 32.5% win goes down to about 11%. Therefore this is never the right call with a big stack, and absolutely the wrong call with a shortstack.

I would\'ve folded and waited for a better spot. Brutal beat though, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Sharking

3675 to win 10250 is paying 35.8% of the pot. 72o vs a hand like AQo wins about 32.5% of the time. With a huge stack say 20k-25K this is a very loose call that can almost be justified if he is hoping to have two live cards. However it is always a -EV call. The problem is when 72o faces an overpair his 32.5% win goes down to about 11%. Therefore this is never the right call with a big stack, and absolutely the wrong call with a shortstack.

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your pot odds math is a little off, the pot wasn't 10250 yet . he had to call ~56% of the pot(which is even worse) other than that, you're dead on.

Itsa tough laydown, hes only got 3.5BBs n 3 once he goes thru the SB. in most tourneys, not neccasarily in PO games, UTG w/6BBs is probly shoving ATC so hes probly got 2 live ones. In these tourneys tho w/most ppl waiting for premium hands to shove then i can maybe find a fold. Any other game w/3.5BBs, n even in these, i think i gotta call.

Now if he has already sat back n not made any other plays to try n chip up n has just been blinding out then id probly say itsa bad call. If he just got short or has been short n has been shoving already to chip up then its not.

I guess what im trying to say is if he knows y he did it then itsa good call, if hes just a donk n just called to call then u can call it how u see it.

I would defnitely laid down the 72 in this situation. Very donkish call if you ask me.

what you didn't mention was is this a po fr or a real game. Cause imo, comes down to what payout jumps are. His chances of moving more than 1 spot are slim if he folds anyway, but if its a real game and thats a decent jump in pay then definately i'd say he should fold, if po fr and jump is 50 cents, then maybe he sees it as long shot to double and have a shot to go a little deeper. But 72 is 72

After talkin to mich in chat n finding out that BB has a similar sized stack as UTG shover id probly be leaning more to the side of the fold.

Mich is my math off? 6575(current pot)/3675(what he has to call) is 1.789. That means he is getting 1.789 to 1. To convert this to a percentage it is 1 / (1 + 1.789) = 35.8%. Which is the same as 3675/10250 = 35.8%. Am I calculating this wrong? I just read a lot of forums discussion if you add your bet to the pot or not when calculating pot odds and their seems to be mixed responses.

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Originally Posted by Sharking

Mich is my math off? 6575(current pot)/3675(what he has to call) is 1.789. That means he is getting 1.789 to 1. To convert this to a percentage it is 1 / (1 + 1.789) = 35.8%. Which is the same as 3675/10250 = 35.8%. Am I calculating this wrong? I just read a lot of forums discussion if you add your bet to the pot or not when calculating pot odds and their seems to be mixed responses.

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The pot odds would be 3675/6575, not the other way around.... you're inadvertently inflating the odds. He has to put in 3675 to win 6575, if you say he has to put it 3675 to win 10250, then you are counting the 3675 twice. Simplified, say the pot is 10, and you have to call 1, your odds are 10 to 1, not 11 to 1.

Basically, he has to call 55% of the pot, with an 11% chance to win. And Zero implied odds.

I like how you 2 can debate without drawing blood, I wish more threads here could be like this one. Great thread great responses.

its a straight up fold id rather blind out that play 72 off, id feel so dirty afterward if i won the hand, that being said i have been tempted if im a bag stack to possibly call with any 2 just to try and get lucky and knock the guy out, but when im short stack, nope its a no brainer

Ok, if I was dealt Q-Q and the table folded but 1 player holding 2-7 I want that call all day and night, unfortunate you ran into a 4 card flush if I read this right.

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Originally Posted by Drywallman3

Ok, if I was dealt Q-Q and the table folded but 1 player holding 2-7 I want that call all day and night, unfortunate you ran into a 4 card flush if I read this right.

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dude u fail on so many levels right now

what hes asking for is what you would do if your in the guys shoes with 72o would you have called mich mans shove or folded

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Originally Posted by azreal1

dude u fail on so many levels right now

what hes asking for is what you would do if your in the guys shoes with 72o would you have called mich mans shove or folded

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you are right, my bad. Now if I was super drunk and had 1 player to play and I am holding 7-2o , I still could not find the power to call it. Now I have seen at least 4 players here who I won't mention play the most god awful hands like this one and destroy players from the start.

If you are facing a bet of 250 into a pot of 750 you are getting 3:1 odds correct? 750:250 is 3:1. Similar to how 6575:3675 is 1.79:1. Now 3 to 1 odds is 1/(3+1) = 25%. If your pot odds are 25% and your chance of making your hand is 25% then when you put 250 into a 750 pot you will break even in the long run. If you put 250 into the pot 4 times. you will lose 250 3 times and profit 750 (1000-250) 1 time. That means 3:1 is indeed 25% pot odds. Using this same math for your hand 6575:3675 is 1.79 to 1. 1/(1.79 +1) is 35.8%.

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Originally Posted by Sharking

Mich is my math off? 6575(current pot)/3675(what he has to call) is 1.789. That means he is getting 1.789 to 1. To convert this to a percentage it is 1 / (1 + 1.789) = 35.8%. Which is the same as 3675/10250 = 35.8%. Am I calculating this wrong? I just read a lot of forums discussion if you add your bet to the pot or not when calculating pot odds and their seems to be mixed responses.

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No shark, to figure pot odds u take whats in the pot already(whether theyre ur chips that u raised into a pot or not that someone shipped over) n divide that by what it is for u to call so in this case, 6575(whats in the pot n he can win)/3675(what he has to call)=1.8:1.

Its when u raise PF then theres a reraise/ship behind u that u count what uve already got in the middle of the pot. For example, blinds 500/1000 w/50 antes n 8 players so 1900 total even before any action is taken. You raise to 2K in MP(3900 total now) BTN ships for 6000(9900 now in pot). So to figure pot odds u would take whats in the middle(500+1000+400+2000+6000) 9900 n divide that by the 4000 that u need to call. So 9900/4000=2.5:1.

Does that help at all or do we need to try this again?haha.

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No shark, to figure pot odds u take whats in the pot already(whether theyre ur chips that u raised into a pot or not that someone shipped over) n divide that by what it is for u to call so in this case, 6575(whats in the pot n he can win)/3675(what he has to call)=1.8:1.

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At Joe 1.79 to 1 is the same as 1.8 to 1. I dont understand how you are disagreeing with me.

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Originally Posted by Sharking

If you are facing a bet of 250 into a pot of 750 you are getting 3:1 odds correct? 750:250 is 3:1. Similar to how 6575:3675 is 1.79:1. Now 3 to 1 odds is 1/(3+1) = 25%. If your pot odds are 25% and your chance of making your hand is 25% then when you put 250 into a 750 pot you will break even in the long run. If you put 250 into the pot 4 times. you will lose 250 3 times and profit 750 (1000-250) 1 time. That means 3:1 is indeed 25% pot odds. Using this same math for your hand 6575:3675 is 1.79 to 1. 1/(1.79 +1) is 35.8%.

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We are severely drifting off the subject here. But for this case, if I am calling 250 into a 750 pot, my pot odds are 33%. not 25%. I have to call 1/3 of the pot. not 1/4 of the pot.

@Mich but its 750:250 which is 3:1. 3:1 is not 33% it is 25%

It seems we are looking at the same point in the sky, but from 2 different perspectives. The important thing is, you agree its a muck!

Me and joe both got that it is 1.8:1 which is 35.8% not 55%.

I don't think even Doyle Brunson himself could play 7-2 o

I am saying he had to call 55% of the pot. Can we get back on the subject?

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I am saying he had to call 55% of the pot

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This is true. However is pot odds are not 55%. Two different things.

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Originally Posted by Sharking

This is true. However is pot odds are not 55%. Two different things.

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If I have to call 55% of the pot, my hand needs to have at least 55% chance to win (in most cases). Call me tight, but that's how I roll. :)

This is a shocking call. Some people have terrible maths when playing poker!! 72 has about 20-25% equity against all the the various hands u r shoving with, with 4BBS UTG. He was putting in about 36% of the pot so this call is NEVER profitable.

Mich I think you are forgetting to calculate that you also win your bet back when you win, not just the pot.

Im calling in this spot. Only chance to move up in the money.

When I play poker on the net with some friends they always said to me : "When you get 72o hand, you must play" Always... So I always tried to play with this hand and I always lost... All in all I think that 72o hand is just daguerreotypes. :)

It is just my opinion. :)

Naaaaa that's a BS defence for a DONK move. Any rational player folds that and holds out for a better hand.

I think, that 72 is BAD hand, for example : yesterday I'd played in owned tornament, and got 72 in my hands, on the flop I got pair of 2, and on river opens 3, so other player go higher pair than me and I lost... No luck for me. :)

Yeah I think that guy made a loose slightly donkish call there with his 72. Mathematically speaking, he made a bad call. But if I have a large stack and it is final table, and I can knock a short stack out with 2 to 1 pot odds or better by calling, I will call with ATC. Especially if it is just a freeroll or micro mtt.

This is a terrible call for this situation. If the BB has 72o, it's folded to the SB who limps, and he shoves I understand. In this spot he's seen someone has a hand to shove with. Any call in this spot is -EV because the hand is going to be behind almost every time. Only if I'm big blind with 20+bb stack and SB shoves to equal a min raise would I call with 72o. Outside of that scenario i never call.